Pushkin.

One of my favorite things about hosting this podcast is having a chance to meet longtime fans of the show.

I love hearing what listeners like you take away from different episodes and answering burning questions.

But there's one question from long -term listeners that I get a lot.

It's this.

Is there an episode that you as the host return to again and again?

one that has advice that you continue to need even as an expert on this research?

That, of course, is a tough question to answer because I love pretty much all the episodes we've had a chance to share with you.

But there is one pair of episodes that I do come back to again and again, especially when I've been thinking about the science of relationships, as we've been doing over the past few shows.

It's a double episode that I did with John and Julie Gottman, a scientist couple who spent over 50 years studying the science of love.

So in honor of this season on the science of relationships, I wanted to share this set of episodes one more time.

In the first episode, which you'll hear today, the Gottmans share what research shows about the surprising power of attention and curiosity for strengthening our relationships.

You'll get to hear all the Gottmans' insights right after the Happiness Lab returns from this quick break.

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These days, there's really no shortage of relationship advice out there.

There are the usual Dear Abby and Modern Love type columns in newspapers and magazines.

There are also reality TV dating shows, couples podcasts, TikTok videos, Instagram reels, Reddit dating threads, and on and on and on.

Some of this advice is helpful, but a lot of it isn't backed up by empirical evidence.

I wanted to explore what the science says about building happier relationships.

And what better way to begin than with a husband and wife team that not only has decades of married life experience to draw on, but also a wealth of knowledge gained from some truly elegant scientific studies.

Julie's walking around with our grandson on her arms.

How old is he?

He is going to be two in January.

Yeah, he just started doing imaginative play this morning.

Okay, Jules.

I like to be included.

Dr.

Julie Schwartz Gottman is a clinical psychologist who's helped people facing challenges in many domains of life, including in their romantic relationships.

By the way, the book is called Fight Right.

I better would have been good if I did it, too.

I thought of it, so that means it's really great.

Dr.

John Gottman is an academic psychologist and pioneering relationship researcher.

Back in 1976, John used the primitive video technology of his day to capture real -life couples interacting with one another.

Collaborating with his then -research partner, Dr.

Robert Levinson, John analyzed hours and hours of taped interviews in order to learn how some couples are able to maintain healthy relationships and to spot the warning signs that a partnership could be doomed.

Today, Julie and John run the Gottman Institute, an entire research center devoted to studying romantic relationships.

You probably won't be surprised to hear that they have a lot of wise things to say.

So much so that we've decided to split their interview into two chunks.

Today, the Gottmans will share what so -called masters of relationships can teach us about avoiding the pitfalls of criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

These are the traits that John and Julie have christened the Four Horsemen of Relationship Destruction.

They've found that their presence in a partnership pretty much guarantees an impending apocalypse.

But the real story started way before John and Julie even got together, back when John and his colleague Robert Levinson were dreaming up a way to robustly study relationships inside the laboratory.

We're too dumb to really have a good theory or anything, so we just had couples come into this lab, talk about how their day went after they'd been apart for eight hours, and interviewed about the major problem in their relationship and asked them to resolve it.

And then they looked at the videotapes and turned the dial to tell us what they were feeling.

that range from very negative to very positive.

And then we just sent them home because we had no clue about how to help anybody.

And three years later, we recontacted these couples to see if they were still together and how happily married they were, how their relationship had changed.

And then we started really looking at the data to get hypotheses and really determine over time by doing this study over and over again, also with gay and lesbian couples, that they're really...

are masters of relationship and disasters like Bob and I.

So, you know, we actually learned from the research.

And then 26 years ago, Julie and I decided to work together in a canoe, you know, where we're paddling in the ocean.

Julie suggested that we work together.

And it was a great combination because Bob and I had no idea to help anybody.

And Julie, with her clinical experience, we were able to combine and...

create a theory of how relationships work and then for the last 26 years we've been testing it out in experiments.

And so, Julie, I was going to ask your version of how you two got together in the first place.

I guess it involves a canoe, huh?

How we got together in terms of our studies?

A little bit of both, the together in terms of the studies and in terms of the forever together.

Okay, let's see.

We both moved to Seattle at around the same time.

So I just finished my PhD.

John has already been a professor and was moving to University of Washington.

We actually met in a coffee house.

John came over to me and said, I wish he would have said, you're the most gorgeous thing I've ever seen.

I really want to have coffee with you.

But, you know, he said, what would you think about having coffee with me?

You know, kind of a nice, dry, professorial question.

So I said, sure.

So he sat down, we had coffee, and we had the most incredible conversation.

It was fantastic.

And the next conversation we had over the phone was four hours long.

So there was obviously a connection.

And I think on our second date, John said, you know, I was in another relationship, but I've told her I'm not going to see her anymore.

I found somebody I want to try and work things out with.

I immediately had a panic attack.

I was like, really?

Already?

But...

Five months later, he proposed.

I said yes.

And I was working purely in clinical work.

So I was working with really the sickest of the sick.

I was working with folks who were psychotic, who had severe PTSD, who'd come back from various wars and torture, who might have had addictions and so on.

And so I was working quite intensely with those folks in private practice for about...

I don't know, five or six years or something.

But every night over dinner, John would come home and tell me about his research.

And I kept thinking to myself, maintain your boundaries, stay in your old world.

You know, it's okay.

It's interesting, but stay in your own world.

And then I didn't.

So we were out.

canoeing outside of Orcas Island in the sea.

It was just absolutely gorgeous.

And you suggest it.

And let me finish.

And I said to him, honey, what do you think about taking this stuff out of the ivory tower?

It's such good knowledge.

And people have no idea of how to have a relationship.

So how about our trying to work on this stuff?

create interventions, create theory to really prevent what made the disasters fall apart years later.

And then we'll test it, see how it works.

And the rest is history.

We immediately started jumping into that, then formed the Gotland Institute to start having couples workshops, continued our research, and so on.

And we built this apartment lab, like a Colga Love Lab.

Saw 130 newlywed couples just a couple of months after the wedding and followed them as many of them became pregnant and had babies.

And, you know, I learned to study babies and it was really fun.

It led to our bringing baby home intervention, which has been our most powerful intervention because when the first baby arrives in the first three years of the baby's life.

Many couples go through a big drop in relationship happiness and fight a lot and there's a lot of conflict.

But about a third of them don't.

And we were able to look at the differences between those two groups and build this workshop and test it and evaluate it.

And it's very effective.

And so when we hear your story about getting together, it's such a lovely story.

I think it can lead people to experience a little bit of a misconception that I think a lot of us have when it comes to love, right?

That love just happens, right?

You see somebody in a coffee shop, you ask them to coffee, and the rest is history.

But your work shows that that's not really how good love works.

Tell me how love, in some sense, really works.

Well, first of all, the first phase of a loving relationship, which people adoringly call in love.

is basically chemistry.

It's basically pheromones.

You are sensing one another at every level and all the stars come out in the sky.

You know, you're very excited.

You're very happy.

Everything is wonderful.

It's a big honeymoon.

You move towards marriage, you get married, and then boom, the bond drops.

You find out your partner is really messy and you're not.

You find out, you know, all the differences.

between you that are significant and that are true for every single couple.

Every person has their own unique personality and lifestyle preference.

And nobody is a clone of each other.

If they were, we'd be bored to tears.

And so people are really different.

And as a result, people have to learn how to manage their differences, manage conflict.

create a path, a journey forward, especially with commitment, in which you're creating a culture that honors both of you, honors both of your traditions, your rituals, your preferences.

And that's not always an easy thing.

The other thing, too, is that none of us has a nice, stable, flat line of a mood.

We're always going up and down and up and down.

And sometimes we're crabby.

Sometimes we're full of delight.

Sometimes we just want sleep all day.

And how does our partner hold that in their hands?

Are they there for us?

Are we there for them?

That building of trust is incredibly important.

Are you there for me when I'm sick?

Are you there for me when I'm depressed?

Are you there for me when I'm triumphant and I just got a big raise and I want to celebrate?

Are you there for me when I just am so stressed out I can't see street?

So there's a lot of back and forth in terms of testing one another.

That's a reality.

And yeah, all of the conflicts of those 130 newlyweds were basically about trust, about what Julie's talking about.

Are you going to be there for me?

Can I count on you?

And the couples who build trust really go on to have a very good relationship.

And usually there's more commitment.

With commitment, they really are saying, you're the love of my life.

There's nobody on the planet that can compare to you.

I'm all in.

And I think this importance of trust gets to another misconception that I think a lot of us have, right?

I think when we think of successful couples, a lot of us mistakenly think that they're couples that exist maybe without conflict or they don't fight very much.

They don't have a lot of negative interactions.

But your work has shown that the negative interactions might not be as important as the flip side.

Talk to me a little bit about that.

Even a woman's anger, for example, which men find unpleasant in the moment, in the long run, really is good for the relationship.

You know, what a lot of couples therapists thought was the destruction of anger is actually a good thing.

So if people can talk about what they feel and what they need with one another, then, you know, these emotions really can be very constructive.

And the goal of conflict is mutual understanding.

Yeah, let me say a little more about that.

Most people, when they have conflicts, what they imagine is just skating on the surface.

They have this current problem.

They've got to come up with a fix for that current problem.

But they're not necessarily aware of all the underlying subterranean messages, history, values.

Ideal dreams that lie beneath that surface that they're arguing about.

And so part of what we saw, Laurie, with the masters of relationship is that they almost always dug deep when there was a really significant issue at stake.

And they would reveal their enduring vulnerabilities, the old scar tissue from childhood baggage they were still carrying, or another relationship, an old relationship.

Nobody really escapes childhood without some kind of baggage.

I mean, I've never seen somebody who has.

And thus, when we are fighting for something we believe in, some of that baggage can get kicked up, right?

Like we may feel judged, we may feel rejected, we may feel put down.

Even when our partner is saying, honey, you're the most wonderful thing on the planet, still.

We're hearing old messages in that brain of ours and misinterpreting what our partner is saying.

So the successful couples are people who really check deeply.

Am I hearing you correctly?

Is this what you're saying?

Tell me where that comes from.

Where did that value get established in your life?

Because it sounds like it's relatively new.

And before that, you had a different set of values.

What happened?

It's people really exploring each other's internal landscape to find out where does their partner live inside?

Who is their partner really?

That's the beauty of conflict, that you're opening up these aspects of people's inner world that you may not have really been aware of fully.

And through conflict, you learn all about that.

And that's a good thing.

And so I think we're going to dive much more deeply into the conflict work.

I want to get totally to fight right.

But I also wanted to start with some of your earlier work just on the power of positive interactions.

Because I think when we think about couples that aren't doing so great, we're mostly thinking about couples that are having fights or having conflict or things like that.

But we often don't realize that sometimes it's really about couples not investing in the positive side of things.

I'm kind of getting to some of these bids and things.

And so you talk about this kind of misconception that the investment really needs to be in the positive side of things.

too.

And we noticed very quickly in the apartment lab that there were these small moments where one or both people were trying to make a connection, get their partner's attention or interest or have a conversation, get some affection, tell a story, tell a joke.

And how the partner responded to this bid for connection really predicted the future of a relationship.

It's now been called the bird test on TikTok.

And the idea is, you know, if you try to get your partner's attention just to look at a bird outside, and they do, they say, oh, yeah, beautiful bird.

Then that really predicts a very good relationship.

And in fact, the couples who divorced in the love lab had only turned toward bids 33 % of the time.

The couples who were still together six years earlier had turned toward these bids 86 % of the time.

So a really huge difference.

So give me a sense.

how couples can react to one another's bids, you know?

So maybe because you've talked about like three different ways people can kind of react.

So let me, let me start with a bit.

Honey, you know, I had a really disturbing dream last night about your mother.

Honey, you know what?

I'm reading.

Would you stop interrupting me?

I don't want to talk about that.

Boom.

That's hostile, right?

That's turning against.

That's what we call it.

Turning against.

Try it again.

I really had a disturbing dream last night about your mother.

I'd like to talk to you about it.

Silence.

It's as if your partner didn't say a word.

They don't exist.

That's called turning away, and it makes people feel unimportant, devalued, disrespected, invisible.

Now let's try it again.

I had a really disturbing dream last night about your mother.

You did?

Yeah.

Really?

My mother got into your dream?

Yeah, she was right in there.

Oh, no.

So what happened?

Tell me about it.

She was so nice to me.

What?

Yeah.

I was really surprised that she was so affectionate.

That's called turning towards where you're immediately responding with interest, with attention, and with connection to your partner's bit.

for connection.

It feels so different.

You know, when you try to connect and your partner doesn't.

So the probability we discovered of rebidding when your partner turns away is almost zero in relationships that are doomed.

It's only 22 % in relationships that are going to stay together.

So it's very low all the time.

So people kind of crumple inside a little bit.

Can I describe an image?

If you imagine a sea anemone.

Those are those creatures, you know, that have about a hundred little tiny fingers.

And those fingers will stretch out, straighten out, and open up when they're relaxed and they're happy.

Imagine just poking a little bit, poking in the center, which is the equivalent of turning against.

And what happens?

The sea anemone folds up its fingers very quickly and tightly.

and is very reluctant to open them up again.

That's, you know, classically what happens inside of us.

When somebody turns against our bid, you know, when we're opening up to our partner, they turn against or away, we shrink down inside of ourselves and again, feel unsafe.

So we don't want to open up again, not for a while.

So love occurs in these very small moments, which is why we say love's a verb, because it's what you do moment to moment that makes the difference.

One of the reasons I find this work so powerful is that, you know, I get the sense, of course, that when you're kind of being adversarial, when your partner makes a bid, if you say, why are you talking to me or something, that that's negative.

But I think the striking thing from your work is that it's just as bad when the partner just reacts with silence, when you're not paying attention.

After reading your work, I've been much more careful about this with my husband, but there are definitely times when I'm, you know, checking my email or looking at a screen that, you know, he's mentioning something and my son's like, oh, this is not interesting.

Like, it's so easy not to pay attention.

But when you realize like the person on the other end of that email, they're not going to care that I took time away for two seconds.

But my husband, you know, that bid, it matters a lot if I turn away.

I mean, is this the kind of thing you see in couples nowadays when there's so many more distractions for our bid time?

Yes, yes, yes.

You know, I mean, I'm sure all of us have gone into a cafe and we've seen a table of four people, maybe every single person is on their phone.

And they're looking at their screens.

They're not looking at each other.

And there's absolute silence at the table.

What kind of community connection is that?

It's nothing, which for me anyway, is very painful to see because there's the opportunity, all these people sitting together or a couple sitting together where they really could be having interaction, connection, laughter, delight, enjoyment.

Sharing stories.

Nope.

Silence.

That feels very empty, like a vacuum exists between them.

Well, you know, what's really amazing, Lori, is that these small moments mount up, you know, and either create an emotional bank account that has a lot of good stuff in it or one that's barren.

In the latter case, it leaves people feeling very lonely.

And in the other, very full and very connected.

And it affects not only love in the moment, it affects our physical health and longevity.

So if we have a more connected relationship, we're going to live about 17 years longer than if we don't.

If living a longer, happier life isn't a good enough reason to pay just a little more attention to our loved ones, then I don't know what is.

But being receptive to our partner's bids for attention are only one of the things that the Gottmans recommend.

Their next challenge involves finding ways to remain curious about our lovers, no matter how long we've been with them.

We'll hear more about why building curiosity is so important when The Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

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If you're months, years, or even decades into a relationship, you might be tempted to think that you know everything there is to know about your partner.

But relationship experts Julie and John Gottman say that can be a fatal assumption.

It can also be a problem when life simply gets in the way of the usual relationship curiosity.

When we get busy, things to do, children to pick up, meals to make, grocery shopping to do, busy, busy, busy.

How much time do we actually have to give to conversation with our partner where we're simply just wanting to know how was your day?

What was the worst part about it for you?

What was really happening that upset you, etc.?

We're not asking each other those big questions.

Julie says that retaining a deep curiosity is vital to the health of any relationship.

But it's also something that often fades after the early days of courtship.

You may remember when you were first dating or you first met your partner, you didn't know anything.

And so you ask them lots of questions to find out who are they?

What makes them tick?

Where did they come from?

How did that legacy influence them now?

But when we get busy with kids, with jobs, with careers, we take for granted that we really know our partner.

So we don't need to ask those questions anymore.

But think about it, guys.

Every single day is a new experience.

And every new experience builds another layer of identity into each individual.

Well, how do you keep up with that evolution of your partner, that development as they go through new experiences, politics, friendships?

You know, who do they become?

Because we're always in a state of becoming.

We never have just arrived.

That's an illusion.

We're always becoming.

And thus, we have to keep asking open -ended questions.

That is, questions that have a great big answer, not just a one -word or two -word answer.

To learn, who are you today?

Who do you want to be tomorrow?

Those are important questions to keep repeating throughout our relationship.

May I tell you a story, Lori?

Oh, please.

Yeah, here's the story how all of this got started.

When John and I were first married, we didn't have much money.

He was a professor.

I was starting in private practice.

But we wanted to go out on a date night once a week.

So we lived in Seattle, and there's a beautiful hotel called the Sorrento that...

has a magnificent big stone fireplace in the lobby and gorgeous, beautiful, soft couches that you fold into right in front of the fireplace.

So what John and I would do is we would go to this hotel and we pretend we were guests and we would grab a couch, stay in the couch for three hours, have one drink, which was cheap.

And at the end of the date, we would walk out.

So during the date, We would ask each other these big questions.

John always brought a yellow pad and he would take notes about my answers, which meant, oh my God, I better be careful because one of those answers might wind up in a book.

So I was very careful about what I said, but we were never at a loss for questions because there was always more going on week to week that we wanted to learn about.

And later on, we developed this tradition of our annual honeymoon.

We would rent a room and a bed and breakfast.

And for about two weeks, we would ask each other three questions.

What did you love about this year?

What did you hate about this year?

And what do you want next year to be like?

So we do kind of like a review of the whole relationship for that year in that annual honeymoon.

We've done it for 23 years now.

It's tradition.

And we ask those open -ended questions of each other just to kind of understand.

how our partner has been affected by the urine, you know, and what they're thinking about.

It sounds like this is so powerful to just kind of take the time to get to know your partner, right?

You can notice them changing over time and so on.

But this is the kind of thing that we forget to do when we're busy.

Another thing we forget to do when we're busy is to notice our partner's good features.

But you've argued that we need to fight this tendency, that another thing we can do to make love last is to notice the good stuff.

Can I tell you about a study that is really amazing?

We didn't do it.

This study had observers in couples' homes just noting down everything positive that one person said to the other.

And one observer was observing the husband, one observing the wife.

The couple was also scoring what their partner was doing positive.

And what they discovered was that when the relationship wasn't going well, people missed 50 % of all this positivity.

They just didn't see it.

So the idea is your partner is doing good things.

They're taking the garbage out, emptying the dishwasher, you know, saying nice things, but it's just, you don't even notice.

It's just going over your head.

You don't even notice it.

Right.

That's an amazing study.

Robinson and Price did that study.

You know, it's so important because here's the positivity, but it's not getting noticed by the partner when they're really unhappy in the relationship.

Right.

And so how do we fix that?

Well, so our motto is look for what your partner is doing right and say thank you.

Very, very simple thing.

It's a habit of mind.

You know, we've grown up in a very critical society.

This is a very competitive, contemptuous place a lot of times where we're critical, we're being criticized, we're always comparing ourselves sometimes negatively to other people.

So you've come by it righteously, this habit to look for what's going wrong, right?

But...

It's not that hard to just shift to, if my partner wasn't taking out the garbage, wouldn't that be a drag?

How wonderful that they're taking out the garbage.

Thank you very much for taking out the garbage.

So if you imagine your partner's not doing this positive thing, it means you'll probably have to be doing it, which will stress you out even more because you already have a lot on your plate, right?

So it's practicing gratitude and it's seeing what are they doing?

Even those little subtle things.

Every single morning for the last, I don't know, 37 years since we've been together, John's been making our coffee every single morning.

And here it is.

And it's really good.

And I love it.

And I thank him every single morning.

I know how she likes it.

He knows how I like it.

And if I keep saying thank you, he'll keep making it.

I will.

And I know you had, if I recall from the book, I know you had a story where you really noticed for the first time how important that was when he wasn't there to make the coffee.

Well, I was very sad that he wasn't there.

And I was thinking, God, does it take five scoops or six scoops?

And I can't remember what I did.

And I don't know.

I put in seven scoops just for the heck of it.

And then I shot to the ceiling after drinking half a cup and stayed there for the next 24 hours.

This was not a good thing.

So the next time when John made the coffee, it was like, oh, thank you for making the coffee.